Transcript·文字實錄

馮欣：感謝您收看《解析中國》的特別節目。在過去的11天里，我和同事們在北京報道中國的“兩會”。兩會指的是全國人民代表大會，簡稱“人大”，以及中國人民政治協商會議，簡稱“政協”。來自全國各地的上千位代表聚集在北京，參加這兩個被公認為中國每年最重要的政治活動。代表和委員們討論議案和提案，以及各種社會和法律問題。

Feng Xin: Thanks for joining me for the special episode of Digest China. Over the past 11 days, my colleagues and I were covering China's two annual sessions, or "lianghui", in Beijing. The two sessions included the National People's Congress, or the NPC, and the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, or the CPPCC. Thousands of representatives from all over the country gathered in Beijing for what are considered China's most important annual political events. The officials discuss bills and proposals, as well as various legislative and social issues.

馮欣：如果你想更多地了解兩會如何運行，我們制作了一個動畫短片，解答一些最常見的問題。你可以點擊“往期節目”里的“解析中國‘兩會’”來觀看。

Feng Xin: If you want to know more about how the two sessions function, we made a short animated video answering some of the most frequently asked questions. You can watch it by clicking on our previous show: What are China's two sessions?

馮欣：我們采訪了幾十位人大代表和政協委員，精選了八段我們認為最能夠代表兩會話題的采訪片段。

Feng Xin: We have interviewed dozens of NPC deputies and CPPCC members. We invite you to watch eight interview segments we think best represent the topics discussed during the political events.

馮欣：今年全國人大會議的一項主要議程是審議《刑事訴訟法修正案（草案）》，草案對現行法律110個條文做出了修改?，F行的刑事訴訟法于1979年制定，1996年修訂。十六年過去了，現在做出了哪些修改？

Feng Xin: One of the main items on this year's NPC agenda was a review of the draft amendment to China's Criminal Procedure Law. There are revisions to 110 articles in the current law, which was enacted in 1979 and last revised in 1996. Sixteen years have passed. What have been changed?

宋魚水：刑訴法的修改最重要的是懲治犯罪和保障人權并重，我覺得這兩點是非常重要的。比如說懲治犯罪，懲治犯罪最重要的一個核心在于證據制度。我們有一個非常完整的證據制度才能夠保證有罪的犯罪嫌疑人能夠得到應有的懲罰。同時無罪的也應該得到應有的保障，罪與非罪之間，還有量刑之間。

Song Yushui: I think the most important change is that the amendment attaches equal importance to punishing crimes and protecting human rights. I think these are two key parts. In terms of punishing crimes, the evidentiary system is fundamental. We need to have a complete evidentiary system to make sure suspects who are indeed guilty receive the punishment they deserve and innocent people are protected at the same time. It plays a key role in conviction and penalty.

宋魚水：那么在這個過程中，刑事訴訟法最大的一個亮點是鼓勵證人積極出庭作證，同時如果是不出庭的，也采取一些相應的制裁措施。在這個基礎上，加大了保障尊重人權的力度，也就是說，即使是犯罪嫌疑人，他的權力如何得到程序上的保護，我覺得做了很大的規定。

Song Yushui: One of the highlights of the drafted amendment is that it encourages witnesses to appear in court to testify. If a witness fails to appear in court, the court may compel him or her to do so. In addition, the drafted amendment puts more emphasis on protecting human rights. That is to say, even if someone is a criminal suspect, his or her rights need to be guaranteed procedurally. The drafted amendment includes a lot of specific requirements.

宋魚水：這次刑事訴訟法還有一點，就是死刑制度，死刑制度實行嚴格的死刑原則。當然在這個制度上一直有兩種觀點，有的人希望廢除死刑，但是我覺得在我們國家，絕對的廢除死刑還是不太現實的。國情很大，也很復雜，人也很多，但是盡量的謹慎，我覺得這個還是值得的。

Song Yushui: One more highlight is on the death penalty. The drafted amendment puts forth strict death sentence principles. Obviously there have always been two sides of views on the death penalty. Some think we should abolish capital punishment. But I think so far in our country absolute abolishment of death sentences is not quite realistic because of the complexity of our country and the huge population. However, we need to be as cautious as possible (when using capital punishment). I think this is necessary.

馮欣：自中央和各地方政府出臺房地產限購政策已有一年多，限購令的目的是抑制房地產市場投資過熱并降低房價。3月5日，國務院總理在《政府工作報告》中說，2012年，政府將繼續嚴格執行房地產的調控政策并基本建成500萬套保障性住房。這些政策到底意味著什么？

Feng Xin: It's been more than a year since the central and local governments in China imposed restrictive purchase policies in various cities. The purpose was to discourage overinvestment in the real estate market and bring down property prices. On March 5, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao said in his Government Work Report that the government will continue to regulate the real estate market and complete 5 million units of low-income housing in 2012. What do all these policies mean?

王健林：中央調控有兩句話，一是防止房地產風險，促進實業發展，就是使資金從房地產撤回來，回歸實業，這是一個目標。第二個叫做保障民生。保障民生目前只是提了一個口號，建保障房。但是我從了解中央政策來看，保障房到十二五末期，目標也只保障20%的人。但是實際上有住房需求又不能完全買到很好房子的這個人群，不是20%, 應該是百分之六七十，那就意味著還有百分之四十、五十的人群不能通過保障房獲得住房圓住房夢，必須通過商品房市場來買房。那么對于中等收入這部分人的保障，如何惠及民生？我覺得應該恢復原來優惠貸款利率。

Wang Jianlin: The central government's policies have two sentences: The first sentence is "preventing real estate risks and boosting industrial development". This means withdrawing investment from real estate and relocating it in industries. That's one goal. The second sentence is "safeguarding people's livelihood", but so far it's only been about building low-income housing. As far as I understand the policies, the goal is to guarantee that 20% of the urban population will be living in low-income houses by the end of 2015. However, the number of people who have actual demand to buy houses but cannot afford to do so is far more than 20%. They probably account for 60% or 70%. This means 40% or 50% of (those) people are not able to own a house through the low-income housing system. They have to buy commodity housing. So how can the middle-income people's livelihood be guaranteed? I think we should revert to the old prime rate.

王健林：我覺得今年整體，簡單一句話形容，今年房價全國是穩中有降。首先從前兩個月看，全國70個大中城市全部環比止漲，這70個城市占全國房地產市場的百分之八十以上。全國雖然有2000多個縣城，600多個城市，但是這70個城市基本就是中國房地產的絕大部分。所以這70個城市控制好，基本上全國房地產市場就穩定了。這70個城市前兩個月已經環比止漲，那么再加上今年房地產調控不動搖，再加上貨幣只增長14%，還是適度從緊這么一個態勢，再加上預期改變——不管是開發商還是購房者對房價漲的預期改變，這三層作用力綜合起來，我認為全年房價肯定是穩中有降的。

Wang Jianlin: My prediction for this year can be summarized in one sentence: Housing prices around China will be stable with slight decline. First, if we look at the first two months, the linked relative ratio of housing prices in 70 major Chinese cities all stopped rising. These 70 cities account for more than 80% of China's real estate market. Although China has more than 2,000 counties and 600 cities, these 70 cities make up most of China's real estate market. So if the housing prices in these 70 cities are controlled well, China's real estate market is basically stable. The 70 cities' linked relative ratio has already stopped rising. The central government's restrictive policies remain firm. The currency value only goes up 14%, still keeping appropriately tight. Plus people's expectations are changing – both real estate developers' and consumers' expectations are changing – when these three forces unite, I think housing prices will definitely be stable with slight decline this year.

馮欣：根據國家統計局的數據，2011年中國大約有1.5億離家外出務工的農民，很多人不得不把自己的妻子留在鄉下，這些留守婦女的生活要面臨哪些困難和挑戰？

Feng Xin: According to China's National Bureau of Statistics, about 150 million migrant workers left home to work in other provinces in 2011. Many had to leave their wives behind in the countryside. What challenges and difficulties do these women face in life?

甄硯：就我們的了解，大概有4000多萬這樣的婦女在農村，守著土地，守著家庭，守著孩子和老人。比如說她們生產農忙的時候，覺得沒有人幫忙，會比較艱辛。然后她們在分擔家務的時候，沒有人幫著她們來承擔，所以她們會比較勞累。她們在教育孩子的問題上，常常是一個人來面對，所以比較焦慮。在對待老人的贍養中，她們的負擔也是比較重的。

Zhen Yan: As far as we know, there are about 40 million 'left-behind' women in the countryside, taking care of the land, the family, the children and the elderly people. They often face hardships during busy seasons when no one is there to help. They can often get very tired when they have to take care of all the house work without any help. When educating children, they are also on their own and can get very anxious. In terms of supporting elderly parents, their burden is heavy, too.

甄硯：當然還有一個很重要的就是你提到的問題，關于安全問題。我們了解到農村婦女，比如說家里失盜，牛被偷了，一些重要的物件被偷了。還有一個就是受到性騷擾，這樣的問題也有。另外特別值得我們重視的一個問題，就是有一些留守的女童遭到了一些性侵犯，我覺得這是我們堅決要進行遏制的。

Zhen Yan: Of course, there's the issue you just mentioned, which is about their safety. We have learned that these women are often victims of burglary. For example, their cows are stolen, and important items get stolen. Another thing is sexual harassment. There are such issues. We also have to pay attention to some left-behind girls who were sexually molested. I think we need to curb such cases with determination.

馮欣：云南省連續三年遭受嚴重干旱，據云南省民政廳統計，截止到今年2月，超過230萬人飲水困難，超過630萬人生活受到影響，以省會昆明市為例，現在的情況有多糟？

Feng Xin: Yunnan province in southwest China has been experiencing a severe drought for three consecutive years. According to Yunnan's Bureau of Civil Affairs, as of February 2012 more than 2.3 million people are having difficulty accessing drinking water, and more than 6.3 million people have been affected. Take its capital city Kunming as an example. How bad is the situation right now?

張祖林：三年就降了兩年的雨，到現在為止，我們全市庫塘蓄水，從去年秋季以來到現在，就是靠一半不到的水量維持著我們城鄉居民的生產和生活，所以這個水是用一滴少一滴。到現在為止，我們主要城鄉飲用水源的水利設施，它的蓄水量，如果我們精打細算，大家節約水資源的話，勉強能夠使用到5月中下旬，也就是雨季到來的時候。如果我們浪費水，不節約用水，估計到5月中下旬都堅持不到，很可能就會出現嚴重的水荒。

Zhang Zulin: (Yunnan) only had two years worth of rain in three years. The water storage in our city's reservoirs has been at less than half (the total capacity) since last fall. Kunming's city and rural residents have been relying on a limited amount of water for living and production. So when a drop of water is used, there is one less. By far, the water storage in our reservoirs - if we tighten our belt - may sustain us until the middle of May when the rain season comes, but it could be difficult. If we waste water, we can barely make it until mid May. There will be serious water famine.

馮欣：在2011年12月舉行的中央經濟工作會議上，中央政府立志要改善中國中小企業的生存環境，而這個會議通常為下一年中國的經濟發展定下基調。很多人大代表和政協委員在今年的兩會中再次提出這個問題，中國的中小企業到底面臨怎樣的困難？政府怎樣做才能改善它們的生存環境？

Feng Xin: At its annual Central Economic Work Conference in December 2011, the Chinese government vowed to improve the business environment for China's small-to-medium sized entrepreneurs. The conference usually sets the tone for China's economic development next year. Many NPC deputies and CPPCC members brought up this issue again during this year's two sessions. What exactly are the difficulties China's small-to-medium sized companies have to face? What can the government do to make their business environment better?

朱成鋼：中小企業因為在我們國家經濟發展當中起了非常重要的作用，它對GDP的貢獻是50%，但是它最大的貢獻是在就業，它有90%多的就業貢獻率。但是最近幾年，中小企業的發展也確實碰到了很多困難，中小企業現在很大的問題，比如說貸款難的問題，主要我覺得還是不同所有制的地位能不能平等的問題。那么因為現在銀行貸款給中小企業，同貸款給國有企業，它是兩個不同的風險。貸款給國有企業，它僅僅是業務風險，但是貸款給中小企業和民營企業，除了業務風險還有道德風險。所以在這樣的情況下，銀行當然對于中小企業貸款會有很大的顧慮。

Zhu Chenggang: Small-to-medium enterprises (SMEs) have played a very important role in our economic development. They contribute 50% of the GDP. But their biggest contribution is in creating jobs, making up 90% of the employment. But in recent years, SMEs have encountered many difficulties in their development. One major difficulty lies in getting bank loans. I think it's mainly due to the inequality embedded in different natures of ownership. Banks face two different risks when lending money to State-owned enterprises and SMEs. Banks only face business risks when lending money to the former. However, they have to face both business risks as well as moral hazard when lending money to the latter. Under such circumstances, it's natural for banks to be reluctant to lend money to SMEs.

朱成鋼：第二，中小企業為什么現在生存比較困難？現在各地的政府直接參與微觀經濟比較多，所以政府現在是微觀經濟領域當中的主體。那么作為主體，它天然就有一種追求先進、追求擴大的、擴張的內在沖動，所以如果政府作為第一經濟體，它肯定去追求大企業。

Zhu Chenggang: Secondly, it's very common for local governments to directly participate in local economies, so governments are the main players. As a result, they have a natural incentive to expand their businesses. If they are the lead players in economic activities, they must pursue big enterprises.

朱成鋼：第三是我們現在追求的經濟目標也有一些需要修正的地方，所謂經濟目標，各地政府實際上是追求GDP和稅收。如果我們把追求就業作為政府的第一目標，中小企業的就業貢獻是最大的，但它的稅收貢獻很少，所以政府的選擇——在這樣的經濟目標下——肯定選擇大企業。所以這些深層次的問題如果不解決，中小企業的生存困境就很難得到根本的改善。

Zhu Chenggang: Thirdly, we need to amend some of the economic objectives we pursue. In terms of economic objectives, local governments, in fact, want GDP and revenue. However, if we make creating employment opportunities the government's number one goal, SMEs make the largest contribution, even though they don't contribute much to revenue. Given such economic objectives, it's natural that governments prefer big enterprises. If these deeply rooted problems are not solved, it's hard to improve SMEs' business environment.

馮欣：第十一屆全國人大2011年10月宣布，將反家庭暴力的法律列入2011年立法工作計劃預備項目，現在正在進行立項論證。2009年香港特別行政區通過了《家庭與同居關系暴力條例》。當時香港的立法者都經歷過哪些爭論？有哪些立法經驗可以供大陸分享？

Feng Xin: The 11th National People's Congress announced in October 2011 that it would consider introducing legislation on domestic violence; lawmakers are currently researching and investigating that possibility. In 2009, the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region passed its Domestic and Cohabitation Relationships Violence Ordinance. What were some of the controversies Hong Kong lawmakers debated? What legislative experiences can the Chinese mainland share?

陳婉嫻：在這個過程當中，有兩個很大的爭執，就是婚姻的定義在哪里。如果婚姻可以以異性為主的，還是同性也行的嗎？這個是一個很大的爭議。另外一個爭議就是有關保障的范圍，父母、老人家也是否包在里面嗎？兒童也應該包在里面吧。這也是很大的爭議。我覺得在傳統的中國人里面，一般是家丑不往外傳，你要沖破這個傳統的概念，是很重要的一步。我認為任何家里總有事情發生，這個問題就是如何解決家里不能處理的問題。起碼我立個法，去影響任何準備施暴的人士一個警戒，讓他們不要亂來。

Chan Yuen-han: During the process, there were two main arguments. What's the definition of marriage? Does it have to be between two people of the opposite sex? Or can it be between people with the same sex? This was a big argument. Another was about the scope of the law. Are parents and the elderly included in the law? Or maybe children should be included, as well. This was also a main argument. I think in traditional Chinese culture, people don't wash their dirty laundry in public. It's important to break up the traditional concept. I believe any family can have issues. The key question is how to solve problems that cannot be solved behind closed doors. If we have legislation it can at least warn those who are about to commit violence, telling them to step back.

馮欣：根據媒體報道，中國幾個省最近宣布要推行一項措施，讓艾滋病檢測者提供他們的真實姓名，這項提議立即引起了爭議。艾滋病實名檢測究竟有何利弊？

Feng Xin: According to media reports, several Chinese provinces recently announced plans to implement a policy asking people who take an HIV test to provide their names. Such proposals invited immediate debate. What are the pros and cons of real-name HIV testing?

邵一鳴：我們知道艾滋病是一個飽受歧視的疾病，在我們的社會仍存在很多對艾滋病的歧視。你可以想象，艾滋病實名檢測會引起很多擔憂，但事實上，任何事都有兩面性，對于匿名檢測，它可以更好地保障感染者不被識別和歧視。但是醫療機構不能掌握他們的情況，政府也就不知道真實的疫情。在我們現行的艾滋病防治工作中，我們總是將預防和治療結合在一起，如果不知道病人的身份，我們就很難為他們提供治療和咨詢，由于治療是一件終生的事，你得知道這些人，他們在哪里，才能給他們送去藥物，所以這是一把雙刃劍。

Shao Yiming: You know AIDS is a stigmatized disease. So in society there is still a lot of discrimination against AIDS. You can imagine real-name testing will cause a lot of concerns. Actually, any (issue) has two sides. For anonymous testing, it provides a better guarantee for the infected people to not be identified (and) not be discriminated against. But the health agencies do not know them. And the governments do not know the real epidemic figure. And in the current AIDS control and prevention, you always combine prevention with treatment and care. So without knowing the people's identity, it is difficult to provide the care, counseling and treatment for them. Because the treatment is life-long, you have to know the people–where they are, send them drugs regularly. So it's a double-edged sword.

邵一鳴：但是我們現在推行的政策，初步檢測仍然是匿名的，你不需要提供姓名來做HIV病毒檢測。實名檢測只是在第二個階段——確診階段，給你提供確診報告，并將你與治療機構牽線的階段，我們鼓勵病人提供真實姓名。

Shao Yiming: But the policy currently implemented in China is that screening tests are still anonymous, so you don't need to tell your name to do an HIV test. It's only at the second stage to confirm the diagnosis, providing you with a diagnosis document and then linking you with care and treatment. At that stage we encourage patients to be identified.

馮欣：3月11日，最高人民法院院長王勝俊向代表和委員做了工作報告，他在報告中說2011年各地法院共審結了278件食品犯罪案件，判處罪犯320人。在上期《解析中國》的民意調查中，我們的觀眾將食品安全列為他們最關注的問題。那么政府怎樣做才能讓我們的食品更安全呢？

Feng Xin: On March 11, the president of the Supreme People's Court, Wang Shengjun, gave his annual work report to NPC deputies and CPPCC members. He said courts around China brought 278 food-safety cases to trial and convicted 320 suspects in 2011. In a Digest China poll we posted along our last show, our viewers ranked food safety as the most concerning issue. What can the government do to make our food safer?

雷曉凌：我們現在從檢測能力和力度來說，跟國外比并不差，因為我們現在很多需要檢測項目，基本上也都檢測了。另外我們抽測的頻率，也就是樣品量，也不算少，我們監管人員比別人還多，所以我覺得食品安全出現的問題，可能還是在于懲罰力度需要提高，再就是需要建立一個社會的誠信信用體系?，F在其實我們食品還是存在多層管理，我們說一個農產品，農業部門來檢測，我們還有一些水產品，還有一些漁業部門，漁業體系統也有一個檢測的部門，可能這里也存在一個責任不是很明確的問題。所以我們也是在呼吁是不是可以整合一些精華部門，包括檢測部門，可能會更有效提高食品的監管力度。

Lei Xiaoling: In terms of our testing ability and degree of enforcement, we are not really behind other countries. Pretty much all the required items are being tested. Also, the frequency of our sampling test–the size of the sample isn't small. We have more supervision personnel than other countries have. Therefore, I think food safety problems probably have a lot to do with the severity of punishment. It needs to be made harsher. We also need to establish a social credit system. In fact, the administration of food is many-headed. For example, agricultural products are supervised by agricultural departments. Aquatic products are supervised by fishery departments. There might be problems with unclear responsibilities. So we are trying to convince the government to integrate some key departments, including testing institutions. Then we can improve the efficiency in the supervision of our food safety.

馮欣：這就是這一期的特別節目，感謝收看。

Feng Xin: That's your special episode of Digest China. Thanks for watching.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中國預算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中國的預算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大學生就業難，難在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 為什么我們經常聽到畢業生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工難，難在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人單位的“招工難”？又是什么讓求職者難以找到這些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中國有沒有足夠的養老錢？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我們到底能領多少錢？到什么年齡應該計劃養老問題？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中國人是否應該晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力資源和社會保障部提出，未來會逐步將退休年齡推遲五年。這樣做有什么深層的社會原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外國人：中國成為機會之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外國人日益增多，是否意味著中國成為機會的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中國反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探討“家庭暴力”這個概念的本身和取證的困難。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中國反家庭暴力立法：難點

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中國》探討中國反家庭暴力立法進程中長期存在的阻力和分歧。